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: My Final Blinds Schedule + Link To League Page  ( 7762 )
Jaywa
Regular
***
: 255



« : Jan 28, 2014 at 14:40 »

I've been running my home game once a month for almost 2 years now and it's all been based on things I've learned here at the HPT Forums. It was rough in the beginning as I was learning what not to do and how to do things right but the great people here have helped me out tremendously and continue to do so!

Just wanted to post my Blinds schedule and my league page for anyone interested. Not really looking for guidance unless you see something glaring that should be changed.

T10k NLH Tourney

Initial Chip Layout
  • 12 - $25
  • 12 - $100
  • 7 - $500
  • 5 - $1k

1 Rebuy allowed until 1st break. $30 Buy-In, 1 $20 Rebuy.
All Levels 20 Minutes

1. 25-50
2. 50-100
3. 75-150
4. 100-200
5. 150-300
20 Minute Break (Chip Out $25)
6. 200-400
7. 300-600
8. 400-800
9. 600-1200
10. 800-1600
20 Minute Break (Chip Out $100)
11. 1k-2k
12. 1500-3k
13. 2k-4k
14. 2500-5k
5 Minute Break (Chip Out $500)
15. 3k-6k
16. 4k-8k
17. 5k-10k
18. 6k-12k
19. 8k-16k
20. 10k-20k

Our league's point system is Dr. Neau's (Thank Doc) and you can view our current standings after 1 game here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqhNliSn6l_bdDNlN1VzZzhNUk9SaFpiejhkMXJtbWc&usp=sharing

You can also see our results from last year's half season (Started the league in June) as well as the stats page. In 2013 the Top 10 made the "Final Table", Josh ended up winning it and taking home $455.

I made all the spreadsheets and have the "Math" one doing all the heavy lifting. We started by getting around 11-14 players each month, now on average it's more than 20.

Enjoy! If you have any concerns or questions let me know!

And again, thanks to the great people here at the HPT for all your past and I'm sure future help!

Smith and Wesson beats 5 of a kind.
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #1 : Jan 28, 2014 at 19:49 »

Blinds look good. I do much the same thing with coordinating first break, chip up, and ending rebuy. I also have a short break deep in the tourney since by then everyone typically wants to jump back in after a quick bathroom break and finish the thing off.

Personally I might be tempted to use only Greens, Blacks, and Purples in the starting stacks and use 10 Yellows for rebuys and chip ups. I like being able to easily double check chip count at the break to make sure I got the rebuy count right. Minor issue though. 12/12/7/5 is fine.

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
Jaywa
Regular
***
: 255



« #2 : Jan 29, 2014 at 01:34 »

Yeah looking at it that wouldn't work for me as I wouldn't have enough $500's to cover that many players, I'd only be able to cover about 20 or 21. But it is something to think about. When I chip out the $500's I also bring in the $5k chips and move up some of the $1k chips as well. After the second break there are just $1k and $5k chips on the table. I'm in the process of getting new chips (Milanos) down the road and I'm thinking of including some of the European style plaques either $20k or $25k.

My rebuy chips also include $5k chips.

Smith and Wesson beats 5 of a kind.
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #3 : Jan 29, 2014 at 02:57 »

Oh, in that case throwing out 2x5K chips would work as well for auditing purposes.

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
Jaywa
Regular
***
: 255



« #4 : Jan 29, 2014 at 10:21 »

Yeah I've had to do that in the past as we had 25 players and I had to vary chip stacks to have enough for everyone. Rebuys were two $5k chips and a "Have fun, you're gonna have to make change."

Smith and Wesson beats 5 of a kind.
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
Regular
****
: 9545


CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #5 : Jan 29, 2014 at 17:37 »

Rebuys were two $5k chips and a "Have fun, you're gonna have to make change."


I prefer to give out big chips for a rebuy and let the players make change.

If there were 10 (or however many) players on the table before and after the rebuy, then there are already enough small chips on the table.  Let them make change.  Handing out another starting stack with small chips just means more work later coloring out all those small chips.

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #6 : Jan 29, 2014 at 17:45 »

Yup, there's always going to be enough change. Or at least there better be because if nobody rebought then that would mean you didn't have enough change on the table to run the tourney well.

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
Jaywa
Regular
***
: 255



« #7 : Jan 29, 2014 at 17:48 »

That's a good point and I never thought of it that way. All I'm doing by giving out more chips on the rebuy is giving myself more work later for the color ups.

Thanks!

Smith and Wesson beats 5 of a kind.
Tex Rex
Regular
***
: 351



« #8 : Jan 29, 2014 at 19:53 »

Jaywa, there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, but you could use considerably fewer chips and save yourself a lot of work.

Here's a couple of ways you could go:
12x25
7x100
2x500
3x1000
1x5000

That uses 25 chips to start.  You need 3 100's per player to color up the 25s.  You need 1 500's per player to color up the 100s (since half would have at least 10 and could color up with a 1000 chip).  You need 2 1000's to color up the combo of 100's and 500's.

Here's another:
8x25
8x100
2x500
3x1000
1x5000

That uses 22 chips to start.  The only difference is the first is you only need 2 100's per player to color up the 25's.

Either of these would make more efficient use of chips.  What you might also do is give out starting stacks like that, but have half of them turn in their 5000 for 1000's.  You will have plenty of change in my experience.

For rebuys I'd either use 2 5000's (preferred), or 1 5000 and 5 1000's.  With 10K starting and a 10K rebuy, a few 25,000's would be nice, especially toward the end of the tournament.

The above assumes you have denominated chips.  If you have denominated chips, how many colors on the table at a time doesn't really matter.  If you have non-denominated chips, if the colors are clearly distinguishable, and you have readily available chip charts, that shouldn't matter.  I've played in games where they have 8 different colors and no denoms.  While it can get confusing, chip charts help.

Your structure looks fine.

Tex Rex in Texas
Jaywa
Regular
***
: 255



« #9 : Jan 29, 2014 at 22:35 »

Thanks Tex, I've actually used the second layout you mentioned before when I had more than 23 players. I like having a lot of chips on the table for each player and don't mind the chip ups too much.

How many initial chips do you guys think is a good amount? I tend towards having a lot, gives me a better feeling than not having many even if they equal 10k.

Smith and Wesson beats 5 of a kind.
Tex Rex
Regular
***
: 351



« #10 : Jan 29, 2014 at 23:08 »

Jaywa, I've recently been forced by a growing game to give out fewer chips but the same value, and what is amazing is that even though the total number of chips in play is about the same, the chip management is much easier.  I have no idea why I didn't use a more efficient chip structure for several years.  I've had players think they are getting a small stack of chips tell me they were surprised how long they could play on them.  The fewer chips on the table, the quicker it is to count them, and the lesser the likelihood of mistakes.  Fewer chips speeds up game management as well.

Another factor that might enter into it is whether you travel with your chips.  If you do, then you also have to look at how you are carrying them, how many it's really feasible to carry, etc.

I know one host that will use bizarre combinations to make starting stacks all only 20 chips.  To me, that's the other extreme, and it actually costs time because everyone always needs change.  But from his chip management, it's efficient, and that's what drives him.  It's OK -- it's his game and he's the one who has to do everything.

All of that said, if you like a lot of chips, and some people do, efficiency isn't the only thing.  If you like the larger number of chips, don't mind the extra time in both game management and before/after setup/take-down time, have the money and storage for more chips, all of that is your call and no one can say you are wrong.  I've been known to order extras of some denoms because I liked that particular chip better than others in the set.  I've since concluded that game and chip management is more important to me.  But it all involves some compromises.

I mentioned it in case you hadn't thought of it.  Really there are a lot of things that go into it.  I'm curious how others do it -- I get good ideas from hearing how others do it, which is another reason to mention it.  :)

Tex Rex in Texas
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #11 : Jan 30, 2014 at 02:28 »

I've given out stacks of 20xT25 before to cut down on anyone having to make change. That was overkill. Now I stick to 12xT25 or 10xT5 as my smallest denom and that's the best balance for me. Having adequate amount of chips to keep the flow of the game going as best as possible is my goal. I don't care if it means managing extra chips for me. Color ups are done during breaks so the number of chips to be colored up doesn't really change much.

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
Tex Rex
Regular
***
: 351



« #12 : Jan 30, 2014 at 09:54 »

Martini, what your are doing makes a lot of sense!  I think 8-12 chips of the lowest denom is optimal.  For second (in tournaments -- may be different in cash games) lowest, I think 5-10 total (including for color ups) is optimal.  Any less and players will constantly make change.  Any more and players will have a lot more chips than are actually needed.

The blind structure is another factor in how many chips you need.  I've found for us (we mostly use 25-100-500-1000-5000 to start; sometimes 100-500-1000-5000-25,000 to start), the real workhorse chips are the 1000s.  They remain in the tournament the second longest.  But we only have 5 per player (start with 3, 2 for color ups), along with 2 additional 1000s per player at a table.  But the time they are the SB, enough players are out that we have a lot of them on the tables.  Despite the relatively low numbers of them, players don't often have to get change for them.  In the bigger set up, the 1000s and 5000s are both workhorses.  When we used smaller value starting chips though (10K instead of 25K), the 100s and 500s were more important.

Tex Rex in Texas
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
Regular
****
: 9545


CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #13 : Jan 30, 2014 at 10:46 »

Here's a couple of ways you could go:
12x25
7x100
2x500
3x1000
1x5000

That uses 25 chips to start.  You need 3 100's per player to color up the 25s.

Rather than hand each player 3 T100 chips (sure, the chips will have migrated to different players by the time you are ready to colorup), I prefer one person buy all the T25 chips at the table (whoever has the most of the T25's at colorup time).  Assuming 10 players to start, and assuming there were no table balancing, then instead of coloring up 30 T100 chips (3 chips to each of the 10 players), I'd prefer to color those right into a larger chip like 3 x T1000 to just the one player.  If your starting stack is good, you have enough T100's on the table already.  And more often than not, the player with all the T25's will also be at or near the chip lead at the table.  Its not a bad thing to give the big stack some hi-denom chips.  Again, fewer overall chips on the table, and if you've planned correctly, you'll still have enough low denoms.

Try it.  Tweak the starting stack if too much change is being made.

JMHO.

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #14 : Jan 30, 2014 at 11:06 »

Buying up chips works though I don't generally do that. I do however skip a denomination whenever possible when coloring up.

Aside from blinds, another factor which plays into how often change is made is the make up of players. If there is a lot of limping in to pots and a couple of table bullies then the small chips tend to get consolidated more than if everyone opened for a raise and kept the small chips in pots to a minimum.

If chips start to get too unevenly distributed I'll either buy a barrel off of someone who has too much and/or swap out small change for larger from the pot if there are a lot of limpers in the hand. I prefer for the dealer to make change instead of players passing chips back and forth since that minimizes the chance of short changing or chip passing.

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
Tex Rex
Regular
***
: 351



« #15 : Jan 30, 2014 at 13:50 »

Wedge's idea is good, though we use the round up method and when we color up, we use the highest value chips possible, even asking them to put in for example some 100's when coloring up the 25's so we get higher value chips out there.  It also takes some time for one to buy from everyone, and with the round up method, you actually have several transactions going on.  One player buys from up to 9 other players, excepting their left overs.  Then the dealer rounds up and collects the spares from the other eight.  Then the dealer colors up the buyer.  It is a valid way of doing it -- it's just a trade off for more transactions during a clock stop (most of our color ups do not occur at official breaks, but we stop the clock to color up).  Wedge's method does result in efficient chip management though.  I couldn't say whether it speeds up the game.

Martin's also right about the make up of players affecting this.

Tex Rex in Texas
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
Regular
****
: 9545


CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #16 : Jan 30, 2014 at 14:31 »

True.

But we color up at the break, and its usually not an issue.  But even selling the chips to the "banker/player", if there is an opportunity to sell T400 in chips, the banker may ask for an extra T100 and give a T500 back.

I guess the group has just become conditioned to not overloading the table with small chips.

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
Tex Rex
Regular
***
: 351



« #17 : Jan 30, 2014 at 17:36 »

Wedge, I'm curious -- do y'all use the round up method, chip averaging, or a race to handle odd chips?  Would you mind explaining the exact procedure for how y'all have one player do the buyout when another player has extra chips?  I've heard other say they use that procedure, but I honestly would like to learn it step by step.  If it works of you, maybe we could make it work.  Thanks.

Tex Rex in Texas
Jaywa
Regular
***
: 255



« #18 : Jan 31, 2014 at 09:30 »

I do the round up method, as long as you have at least half of the next chip value you get that chip, only really comes into play for the $25 and $100's in my game. But I'm thinking a race could be nice, just know that a lot of my players get up from the table and just leave their color up chips in place when the break hits.

Smith and Wesson beats 5 of a kind.
Tex Rex
Regular
***
: 351



« #19 : Jan 31, 2014 at 09:55 »

Jaywa, it sounds more like you do chip averaging than the round up.  With round up, if you have even one 25, you get a 100.  It adds a small number of chips to the tournament.  I'd think having one buy all the remaining chips, except for the extras, would work better with chip averaging or a race, but I don't know for sure.

Most of our players do the color up before break, and I'm glad they do.  That way we have several watching the process.  However, most of the color ups are done between blind times and not at an official break.  We've fairly recently modified our schedule.  I think I said earlier that we don't do a color up at the break, but we do.  We've tried a couple of schedules recently to shorten our game a bit.

Tex Rex in Texas
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
Regular
****
: 9545


CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #20 : Jan 31, 2014 at 12:32 »

Wedge, I'm curious -- do y'all use the round up method, chip averaging, or a race to handle odd chips?  Would you mind explaining the exact procedure for how y'all have one player do the buyout when another player has extra chips?  I've heard other say they use that procedure, but I honestly would like to learn it step by step.  If it works of you, maybe we could make it work.  Thanks.


The fairest way is a chip race.  And that's how we used to do it.  But after a couple years, it was a bit of work to avoid putting a small percentage of extra chips in play.  So we moved to the rounding up method.

As for how we do it, color ups always occur on breaks.  When the break hits, the player with the most of the smallest denom chip (500, in our case) will buy them from the table.  There is generally a person with a clear lead in the 500 chips, but sometimes, there are several people with similar stacks.  Somehow, its never been an issue, someone just takes the lead.

The starting stack contains 10 x T500, so for a full table with no table-balancing (we run a 2-table tournament), there should be 100 T500 chips in play (exactly one full rack), per table.  Most players keep their chips in stacks of 10 or 20 anyway, but as the break hits, players automatically began to stack there T500 chips in this way.  Ideally, once the "banker" is selected/volunteers for the table, he goes around in order (clockwise, counter-clockwise, it doesn't matter) and buys T500's from each player.  Invariably, though, what really occurs is that some people only have a couple of chips; the small stacks of T500 chip up and go to break while the players with more chips stack them into 10 or 20 for easy verification.

[If you are teaching this procedure to your group, I'd insist on an orderly buying process (clockwise, counter-clockwise) for a few tournaments, until everyone understands the process (its not complicated, but there are opportunities for error).   After everyone gets it, the TD can allow these out-of-orders cashouts.]

Its really a transaction between the banker and the player.  The player will set out the number of chips he has and the banker will color him up.  Usually around this time, the TD will get the banker an empty rack (expecting exactly one rack to come off the table, +/- a barrel or so if there's been a table balance).  As the banker buys the chips, he just racks them.

As I said, if someone had, say 16 x T500, the banker may ask for 2 x T100 and just trade back an even T1000.  Usually, the player will set out his chips to be colored up, the TD will verify (usually while the banker is transacting with the player in line in front of that one), and the banker can re-verify if not visibly apparent.  Players know to hold back any oddball chips that can't be evenly colored up.  There's usually only a few of these (3 or 4) per table.

Once the banker has bought all the chips, he will add his chips to the rack.  A full rack should come back; if there's been a table balance, it'll be off a little.  And the full rack will be short by whatever oddball chips couldn't be colored up.  The banker will typically make up for these shortages with higher denom chips and receive a T50,000 chip back (the largest chip in the set).  For example, let's say he only has 97 T500 chips (because he and two other players each have one oddball T500 chip).  He will add a T1000 to his 97 T500 chips (T49,500 total) and get a T50,000 chip back (note, his oddball T500 gets colored up in the sale of the rack back to the TD).

After the banker is cashed out, the TD will color-up the oddball T500 chips into T1000 chips.  Now the rack should be full.  If not (because of a table change), then the rack of 500's coming off the other table should be over/under by the exact same amount.

This process only takes a few minutes at the start of the break.

Usually, if I am doing anything other than the above, I will verbally state what I am doing and make sure both sides of the transaction as well as anyone else at the table hears it.  Like coloring out 97 T500 chips and 1 T1000 chip into a T50,000 chip.  I want to make sure everything is transparent and there is no appearance of impropriety.

Our group is a good group and there is none among us that I would even think would cheat.  Still, I like to keep it above board.  But the trust level (earned over playing with the same group for almost 10 years) is so high, that some people will just leave (to use the bathroom, get pizza, etc.) knowing that there T500's will be colored up (and fairly) in their absence.  There's always enough people mulling around the table when this happens that its never even been remotely close to an issue.  But again, that level of trust has built up over time, and our players are all solid people.

If any of that doesn't make sense, let me know, but that should get you going on the banker/round up method.  When it runs like a well-oiled machine, its fairly quick/efficient.

We specifically adjusted our schedule so that the breaks hit when color ups are needed.  We do have one "color out" where we color out some of the lowest denomination, but we can't completely color-up because the denomination is needed for antes after that.  We just eyeball the number of low denom chips needed.  Antes are collected before/during the deal and if someone needs change (say ante is T1000 and the lowest chip that player has is a T5000), there are enough other antes that change can be made right out of the antes.  Occasionally, change will be made between two players (if, say, the smallest chips for two players is a T5000) -- but that's an infrequent occurrence.
« : Jan 31, 2014 at 16:37 Wedge Rock »

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
Jaywa
Regular
***
: 255



« #21 : Jan 31, 2014 at 14:22 »

Yeah I don't see any of my players cheating either but my group has grown larger over the last few months and while I know everyone I don't know them REALLY well to know if they'd cheat. I usually have at least one person helping me with the color ups and I usually have them double check my math really quick in case someone thinks they've been shorted. Also when it comes to my color up for my own stack I ALWAYS have someone verify my chips.

Again, it's not that I think people don't trust me, it's just that there is money at stake and I want everyone to know I'm being as fair as I possibly can.

Smith and Wesson beats 5 of a kind.
Tex Rex
Regular
***
: 351



« #22 : Jan 31, 2014 at 14:53 »

Wedge, thanks!  That's an excellent explanation.  I copied it into a word file and will have some of ours review it.

I absolutely agree with doing it in order.  We do all color ups in order, unless we have a situation where someone not in the hand can do the color up starting with those not in the hand also.  That speeds the process up a little.

And our players do trust each other, but someone usually watches.  The only exception seems to be if I'm doing stuff.  I'm always a believer in trust but verify.

Tex Rex in Texas
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
Regular
****
: 9545


CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #23 : Jan 31, 2014 at 16:30 »

I usually have at least one person helping me with the color ups and I usually have them double check my math really quick in case someone thinks they've been shorted. Also when it comes to my color up for my own stack I ALWAYS have someone verify my chips.

Again, it's not that I think people don't trust me, it's just that there is money at stake and I want everyone to know I'm being as fair as I possibly can.

QFT.

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
Regular
****
: 9545


CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #24 : Jan 31, 2014 at 16:34 »

I copied it into a word file and will have some of ours review it.

Well, here's an error:

As I said, if someone had, say 16 x T500, the banker may ask for 2 x T100 T1000 and just trade back an even T1000 T10,000.

:embarrassed:

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
Tex Rex
Regular
***
: 351



« #25 : Jan 31, 2014 at 17:23 »

LOL -- I'd already caught it, but I got the idea.

Tex Rex in Texas
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